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Post by Avinalaff on May 3, 2017 14:18:42 GMT
I have to disagree Ross, sorry. Firstly, I'm not a young fan, and have seen Everton success, so I will always be critical of anybody being 'pretty pleased' with 7th, as it shows just how bad our club became, for us to think 7th is a good season. As long as this logic exists, the club are under no pressure to compete, as they see fans have no expectancy regarding winning the title. As for the 2nd point regarding the young players, I don't see it as a positive, and I'll explain why: At the start of the season, Koeman should have made sure we had a strong squad in terms of senior players, and he didn't do that, and most notable was the fact that the board ended the summer window in profit. We even loaned Enner Valencia, which regardless how that worked out, showed signs that the club weren't prepared to spend on another senior striker. We invested in Calvert-Lewin, and Lookman, but let's not pretend that either player has proved a big success, (nor has Pennington) as that would be false, and all 3 have been largely ineffective, and definitely players for the future, not the 'now'. Mason Holgate has done well, but his early season efforts were ignored, in favour of the manager playing Coleman, regardless of early Coleman form (it was poor), and as websites, we were calling on social media for Koeman to play Tom Davies long before he actually did, as our performances were simply not good enough, and doing so, probably saved Koeman's Everton career, as our form improved with Davies. So, the young players papered over very large cracks, and were very much emergency plan B's, rather than Koeman having a plan, per se. Yes, it's his first season, and yes, it's too early to judge him, so still on the fence, but 7th is borderline on a mid table finish when we split the league into top, middle, and bottom, and although we are better than the teams below us, we are much worse than the teams above us. Until we can challenge for the title, we're just a mid-table team, and I'll never be pleased with 7th place. If Everton fans really think 7th is good, then they need to forget our history, and accept that we are in the same bracket as WBA, Southampton, and Stoke, and then anything better is a bonus, but we all know that deep down, Everton don't belong in that bracket, and unless we stop accepting it, and put pressure on the new owner to make the club a winning club again, nothing will change. Like you, I'm a seasoned Evertonian, officially 50 years in June!! Let's forget supporting Chelsea until they lost in the 1967 Cup Final and my hero Bobby Tambling didn't perform on the day! I was only 8!! I told me Dad I'd never support Chelsea ever again, and promptly decided on my team my sticking a pin in the First Division table. My pin was guided to Everton, and I've never looked back. My wall was bedecked with pictures of West, Wilson, Wright, Hurst, Labone, The Holy Trinity, and then gems like Morrissey and Whittle (!!) supporting the bloke up top who I thought was literally a Giant - Royle. Chuck in the mercurial talents of Husband coming and I was a happy chappy. My memory thinks they all played together, but not sure they actually ever did!! Anyway, that's my Everton credentials...... To be clear, in and of itself, I am not "pleased" with 7th, not when taken in isolation. I AM pleased with 7th when taken as part of a journey, as part of the RK Project if you like, and to do it when as you say, we didn't have the squad strength or depth, is pretty significant. Next season will be a tricky start as a new squad (hopefully) has to gel, so we may get more joy in the Cups (eventually), and achieving 7th next season won't be good enough, but if it's a platform established by a new and better squad that can achieve Top 4 (minimum) in the season after that, then that's a project I'd buy in to. I suspect we'll see signs of that next season by an ability at some stage in the season to take on and beat the likes of Chelsea, Liverpool, Spurs and United, and also erase the embarrassing slip ups by losing or not beating the likes of Boro (or their replacement), Watford, Bournemouth and Burnley. I could predict my end of season write up this time next year - a season of two halves: finding our feet in the first, coming on strong in the second. Anyway, We HAVE improved, not enough for me or you, but better than stasis or stagnation. But I have a belief that the foundations are being established, and the new development will be this summer. The tough bit is re-modelling the squad at the same time as City and Arsenal need major surgery, Utd need at least 4 players, and Liverpool need a new back 5, and Chelsea and Spurs will cherry pick some stars to take them forward still further. We're not going to shop at Poundland, but getting the Ferraris and Lambos might be tough!! Lets not forget, Chelsea rebuilt about 6 or 7 years ago when only a few clubs could compete financially as did Man city a few years later. Both were hit by the financial fair play rules which they totally ignored. Now we allegedly have money to spend, but so do other clubs so it is not going to be easy for Everton to Cherry pick. As Ross says, we have improved. Not necessarily in league positions but by performance. Yes we have has some poor games, some really poor ones if I am honest, but, we have also had some good ones. Our home form (only 2 losses all season) is impressive, and should have been better (too many draws). But it is a new manger, who inherited a team that had forgotten how to defend. He did get a few stop-gap players in to help, but he also got the like of Morgan (not even going to try and spell the rest of his name)in. A few more buys like him and we will be more than capable of competing for a champions league place. Only a few weeks ago, we were still in with an outside chance of a top 4 or 5 place and only the results of a few games (typical Everton) have put paid to that. There is no quick fix that will see us challenge for the title (Leicester was a fluke of nature and they are now in a league position that I believe is realistic for them). Chelsea didn't really challenge in year 1 of romans money, neither did city. It took a couple of years. Long suffering Evertonians have been waiting for years to witness a truly successful Everton side, surely a couple of more years of gradual improvement is not too much to ask. I sit firmly in the "Football Is Corrupt" camp. I strongly believe the rich Prem clubs are protected, and a 'higher' level of protection is offered in the European scene, to the big Spanish clubs, on a ridiculous level, which I won't get into, but somewhere along the line, television is running the sport, and they don't want the big names out early in competitions. The Fair Play rule in my opinion was not brought in to STOP the big clubs from spending. It was brought in AFTER the rich clubs had built their squads, and designed to STOP any other clubs from being heavily financed, and following suit. Most big players won't join small clubs, no matter how good the contract, so all the new TV money has done, is raise the price of average players, as second tier clubs attempt to fight over second tier players. Should Everton find a way to spend big in the transfer window, (and I can't see it happening) then they will still have the problem of corruption within the game, that quite subtly, prevents them from succeeding, be it a bad refereeing decision, a bad draw, a blind eye turned, etc etc. Nobody questions the corruption, especially the tv channels, as the tv channels run the sport, and it comes across like clubs know in advance that they won't be allowed to win, but are happy with the payment (deep, I know, but hey ho). For Everton to improve, they now have to overtake the likes of Liverpool, Arsenal, Man Utd, Chelsea, Man City, and Spurs. We still have less money than these clubs, yet these clubs are a far more attractive proposition for the best players in football, so any player we target gets their head turned once one of those clubs takes an interest. Our players are mostly very average. Take Lukaku, Schneiderlin and Gana out of the equation, and we're very ordinary in comparison to the teams above us. Our manager is nothing special compared to those above us, and certainly not one that is going to attract top players in the same way Mourinho does, so as much as some fans thing we are progressing, I personally think the chances of us becoming a successful club again are very slim.
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fitzyefc
Monster Midfielder
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Post by fitzyefc on May 3, 2017 15:46:24 GMT
Lets not forget, Chelsea rebuilt about 6 or 7 years ago when only a few clubs could compete financially as did Man city a few years later. Both were hit by the financial fair play rules which they totally ignored. Now we allegedly have money to spend, but so do other clubs so it is not going to be easy for Everton to Cherry pick. As Ross says, we have improved. Not necessarily in league positions but by performance. Yes we have has some poor games, some really poor ones if I am honest, but, we have also had some good ones. Our home form (only 2 losses all season) is impressive, and should have been better (too many draws). But it is a new manger, who inherited a team that had forgotten how to defend. He did get a few stop-gap players in to help, but he also got the like of Morgan (not even going to try and spell the rest of his name)in. A few more buys like him and we will be more than capable of competing for a champions league place. Only a few weeks ago, we were still in with an outside chance of a top 4 or 5 place and only the results of a few games (typical Everton) have put paid to that. There is no quick fix that will see us challenge for the title (Leicester was a fluke of nature and they are now in a league position that I believe is realistic for them). Chelsea didn't really challenge in year 1 of romans money, neither did city. It took a couple of years. Long suffering Evertonians have been waiting for years to witness a truly successful Everton side, surely a couple of more years of gradual improvement is not too much to ask. It's interesting to hear you say we've improved on performance. I was under the impression we played better football under Roberto Martinez, as least until it went tits up. I've never seen so many long balls since Koeman took over. We've been good in 2017, but our football is still sloppy in possession, especially against the bigger sides.
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fitzyefc
Monster Midfielder
Posts: 1,295
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Post by fitzyefc on May 3, 2017 15:54:31 GMT
Like you, I'm a seasoned Evertonian, officially 50 years in June!! Let's forget supporting Chelsea until they lost in the 1967 Cup Final and my hero Bobby Tambling didn't perform on the day! I was only 8!! I told me Dad I'd never support Chelsea ever again, and promptly decided on my team my sticking a pin in the First Division table. My pin was guided to Everton, and I've never looked back. My wall was bedecked with pictures of West, Wilson, Wright, Hurst, Labone, The Holy Trinity, and then gems like Morrissey and Whittle (!!) supporting the bloke up top who I thought was literally a Giant - Royle. Chuck in the mercurial talents of Husband coming and I was a happy chappy. My memory thinks they all played together, but not sure they actually ever did!! Anyway, that's my Everton credentials...... To be clear, in and of itself, I am not "pleased" with 7th, not when taken in isolation. I AM pleased with 7th when taken as part of a journey, as part of the RK Project if you like, and to do it when as you say, we didn't have the squad strength or depth, is pretty significant. Next season will be a tricky start as a new squad (hopefully) has to gel, so we may get more joy in the Cups (eventually), and achieving 7th next season won't be good enough, but if it's a platform established by a new and better squad that can achieve Top 4 (minimum) in the season after that, then that's a project I'd buy in to. I suspect we'll see signs of that next season by an ability at some stage in the season to take on and beat the likes of Chelsea, Liverpool, Spurs and United, and also erase the embarrassing slip ups by losing or not beating the likes of Boro (or their replacement), Watford, Bournemouth and Burnley. I could predict my end of season write up this time next year - a season of two halves: finding our feet in the first, coming on strong in the second. Anyway, We HAVE improved, not enough for me or you, but better than stasis or stagnation. But I have a belief that the foundations are being established, and the new development will be this summer. The tough bit is re-modelling the squad at the same time as City and Arsenal need major surgery, Utd need at least 4 players, and Liverpool need a new back 5, and Chelsea and Spurs will cherry pick some stars to take them forward still further. We're not going to shop at Poundland, but getting the Ferraris and Lambos might be tough!! Lets not forget, Chelsea rebuilt about 6 or 7 years ago when only a few clubs could compete financially as did Man city a few years later. Both were hit by the financial fair play rules which they totally ignored. Now we allegedly have money to spend, but so do other clubs so it is not going to be easy for Everton to Cherry pick. As Ross says, we have improved. Not necessarily in league positions but by performance. Yes we have has some poor games, some really poor ones if I am honest, but, we have also had some good ones. Our home form (only 2 losses all season) is impressive, and should have been better (too many draws). But it is a new manger, who inherited a team that had forgotten how to defend. He did get a few stop-gap players in to help, but he also got the like of Morgan (not even going to try and spell the rest of his name)in. A few more buys like him and we will be more than capable of competing for a champions league place. Only a few weeks ago, we were still in with an outside chance of a top 4 or 5 place and only the results of a few games (typical Everton) have put paid to that. There is no quick fix that will see us challenge for the title (Leicester was a fluke of nature and they are now in a league position that I believe is realistic for them). Chelsea didn't really challenge in year 1 of romans money, neither did city. It took a couple of years. Long suffering Evertonians have been waiting for years to witness a truly successful Everton side, surely a couple of more years of gradual improvement is not too much to ask. I sit firmly in the "Football Is Corrupt" camp. I strongly believe the rich Prem clubs are protected, and a 'higher' level of protection is offered in the European scene, to the big Spanish clubs, on a ridiculous level, which I won't get into, but somewhere along the line, television is running the sport, and they don't want the big names out early in competitions. The Fair Play rule in my opinion was not brought in to STOP the big clubs from spending. It was brought in AFTER the rich clubs had built their squads, and designed to STOP any other clubs from being heavily financed, and following suit. Most big players won't join small clubs, no matter how good the contract, so all the new TV money has done, is raise the price of average players, as second tier clubs attempt to fight over second tier players. Should Everton find a way to spend big in the transfer window, (and I can't see it happening) then they will still have the problem of corruption within the game, that quite subtly, prevents them from succeeding, be it a bad refereeing decision, a bad draw, a blind eye turned, etc etc. Nobody questions the corruption, especially the tv channels, as the tv channels run the sport, and it comes across like clubs know in advance that they won't be allowed to win, but are happy with the payment (deep, I know, but hey ho). For Everton to improve, they now have to overtake the likes of Liverpool, Arsenal, Man Utd, Chelsea, Man City, and Spurs. We still have less money than these clubs, yet these clubs are a far more attractive proposition for the best players in football, so any player we target gets their head turned once one of those clubs takes an interest. Our players are mostly very average. Take Lukaku, Schneiderlin and Gana out of the equation, and we're very ordinary in comparison to the teams above us. Our manager is nothing special compared to those above us, and certainly not one that is going to attract top players in the same way Mourinho does, so as much as some fans thing we are progressing, I personally think the chances of us becoming a successful club again are very slim. We might get a bit of interest with our European qualification, but it's Champions league that Everton need if they want players. Funnily enough, the last time we were in it Collian the ref conned us, so I agree with the corruption slant.
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Post by Avinalaff on May 3, 2017 19:03:42 GMT
We might get a bit of interest with our European qualification, but it's Champions league that Everton need if they want players. Funnily enough, the last time we were in it Collian the ref conned us, so I agree with the corruption slant. Our current team don't have the mental strength to get top 4. No soon as they get an opportunity to snatch a top 4 spot they bottle it. That's why signing bargains, and potential, or players from mid table clubs isn't wise at this stage, as they have no experience to draw from when their arses start to twitch.
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Post by evertonfan1968 on May 3, 2017 20:02:02 GMT
Only another 3 Obstructed Views to go after this one. Keep going, keep going.... At 63 minutes I turned to my son, and said "whatever happens from this point on, we've played really well for over an hour and held the Champions Elect. They've only had a couple of chances, and so have we." Just 3 minutes later, and we're one down. A further 20 minutes and Willian taps the third in to an empty net in front of a half empty stadium. As they say: "well, that escalated quickly". I've thought long and hard about the emptying of the seats, which started at 2-0, and turned a tide in to a tsunami of exiting fans by the time Willian had celebrated in front of the meff fans in the Bullens. Personally, I never leave a game before the end. It's a lot of money for a couple of season tickets and commuting from Nottingham, so I need to get my money's worth frankly, but I also don't quite get the 'beat the traffic' ethic; in fairness, yesterday it was probably less about getting a few cars in front of me on the East Lancs, more a reluctance to watch Chelsea celebrating an inevitable PL title in front of a full Goodison Park. But also, and probably more accurately, a real sense of disappointment pervaded when the excellent Pedro's shot beat Stekelenburg all ends up, and the inevitable defeat loomed in to view after more than holding our own for over 70% of the game to that point. I was incensed by media reports later that Chelsea "completed a comfortable win" at Goodison, because I think that's far from their own assessment, and was probably written by someone who hadn't watched the game, and just looked at a 3-0 scoreline and assumed it was indeed an easy ride. If Calvert-Lewin's snap shot had been an inch or tow to the right of the post he clattered in the first minute, then it may have gone straight in, or luckily bounced in off Courtois, but no. The better team won, no doubt, but we can be proud of what we achieved. The strength of the respective first XIs was daunting enough, let alone seeing Fabregas and Willian come on as Subs, whilst we brought on Kone. Not much of a comparison. Our best team isn't as good as Chelsea - fact. Our squad isn't anywhere near as strong as theirs either - fact. We may hate it, and we may hate how they've become the new kids on the blocks after Russian investment all that time ago, but as a statement of reality, they're what we aspire to, and haven't got close to matching. We did fine for large slugs of the match, and certainly can be proud of that first hour or so, even if bitterly disappointed with the half hour that followed. And that probably explains the emptying arena, and the dog's abuse that half the team got on social media after the match, and continues as I write. The usual suspects cop for it, Lukaku (who is lazy and doesn't sprint 10km every game, so let's look forward to Ayew next season then); Barkley (with some keyboard warriors echoing the sentiment if not the racism about his game intelligence); Williams (past it); Stekelenburg (need a new No1) etc etc. But with some surprise, Dominic Calvert-Lewin is also "not good enough" to wear the Blue shirt. DCL (sorry, saves time) is a kid. He's 20. He's broken in to the first team after being transferred from a League 1 side. He's learning. He's also got great legs (speed wise, I mean, not an admirer of their aesthetic beauty), moves well, and did a job yesterday doing something that isn't necessarily his preferred role in the team. My theory is that RK is using these dying minutes of the Premier League season (a season in which we've qualified for Europe and briefly threatened breaking in to the Sky 6 if not higher, not bad eh?) to give the lad, and Davies too, invaluable experience to build on for next season and beyond. He isn't anywhere near the quality of the Big Lad alongside him, either now, or when he was the same age, but there aren't many if any who are or were, but what we have is a likeable, personable lad who has been bought for the future and doesn't deserve the flak he's been getting these past 24 hours. Support him and make him better rather than sack him off until you have just cause. Depending on the summer ahead, he may be a loanee next season, crafting his skills in the Championship or at a team promoted to the PL (he'd be a great fit at Brighton from what I've seen), but he's a talent for the future not the here and now. Do what we do when Davies has a wobble. Back him. There seems little point wasting keyboard time on the will they/won't they debate about Rom and Ross, I'm now at the stage of saying what will be will be. Love to keep them, but happy to bag the ££s if they go. Would prefer to build around them, continuity and all that, and given we have to administer team surgery from back to front in the XI, it might be better if it wasn't 'all change' but suspect we aren't in control of our own destiny on this one. Sit back and wait to watch us compete with City/Arsenal/United who need replacements at the number/level that we do, and Chelsea/Liverpool/Spurs that need a few extra top notch players. An interesting summer awaits. In the meantime, can I respectfully suggest we get behind the squad we've got? Go on, you know you love them all really.... Ross Crombie Chelsea were much the better team, and those who say it wasn't a 3 nil game are forgetting the chances they squandered. They've a strong player in every position, but what sticks out the most for me is how passionate their manager is. Compare how cold and stony faced Koeman can be and he might want to take a leaf out of Conte's book. I'm hoping the team finish with the right attitude, as they'll be back early for Europa.
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