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Post by rosscrombie on May 2, 2017 11:38:50 GMT
Just a reminder we finished 7th (or, will) and have qualified for Europe. Anyone would think we finished lower than LY!! While you are both on the subject of 7th place, have you considered the following? Some fans say 7th is a big improvement, and the club are moving forwards, but what if I point out the league finishes in the last 10 years (I can go back 2 years and add a 4th place too) 6th (2006-07) 5th 5th 8th 7th 7th 6th 5th 11th 11th 7th (2016-17) Would you still say the club were moving forward, or would you say that it only seems like it because we had 2 bad seasons? Other than the 2 bad Martinez seasons, we've only managed to finish worse than 7th once in the last decade. Consider how much stick Moyes gets from certain fans, then consider how much praise Koeman is getting. Even Martinez finished 5th in his first season. That's a really good point Av, and a completely fair challenge. I think it's an improvement, not a major step forward, and yes it is in the context of the stagnation, or even backward steps, under Martinez, once teams worked out how to play his one and only system. The Clubs above us have changed too: the last few years have seen Spurs move ahead of us, literally, and this season is unusual in that all of the 6 sides above us have performed more to their potential, which didn't necessarily happen when Moyes was in charge - not every season anyway. But to be clear, it's a move forward, and if I'd said at the start of the season that we'd be 7th and had players like Holgate and Davies playing regulaRLY, that Pennington would feature more, and DCL, and a lad at Charlton would feature for us, and so on, we'd be pretty pleased. But the squad is thin, the squad is ageing and declining in certain sections, and we need lots more bodies and really quality signings in certain positions. That kind of drastic squad overhaul won't make it easy for the new team to gel straight away, but will continue us on the right path to future success. I hope....
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Post by Avinalaff on May 2, 2017 13:59:44 GMT
While you are both on the subject of 7th place, have you considered the following? Some fans say 7th is a big improvement, and the club are moving forwards, but what if I point out the league finishes in the last 10 years (I can go back 2 years and add a 4th place too) 6th (2006-07) 5th 5th 8th 7th 7th 6th 5th 11th 11th 7th (2016-17) Would you still say the club were moving forward, or would you say that it only seems like it because we had 2 bad seasons? Other than the 2 bad Martinez seasons, we've only managed to finish worse than 7th once in the last decade. Consider how much stick Moyes gets from certain fans, then consider how much praise Koeman is getting. Even Martinez finished 5th in his first season. That's a really good point Av, and a completely fair challenge. I think it's an improvement, not a major step forward, and yes it is in the context of the stagnation, or even backward steps, under Martinez, once teams worked out how to play his one and only system. The Clubs above us have changed too: the last few years have seen Spurs move ahead of us, literally, and this season is unusual in that all of the 6 sides above us have performed more to their potential, which didn't necessarily happen when Moyes was in charge - not every season anyway. But to be clear, it's a move forward, and if I'd said at the start of the season that we'd be 7th and had players like Holgate and Davies playing regulaRLY, that Pennington would feature more, and DCL, and a lad at Charlton would feature for us, and so on, we'd be pretty pleased. But the squad is thin, the squad is ageing and declining in certain sections, and we need lots more bodies and really quality signings in certain positions. That kind of drastic squad overhaul won't make it easy for the new team to gel straight away, but will continue us on the right path to future success. I hope.... I have to disagree Ross, sorry. Firstly, I'm not a young fan, and have seen Everton success, so I will always be critical of anybody being 'pretty pleased' with 7th, as it shows just how bad our club became, for us to think 7th is a good season. As long as this logic exists, the club are under no pressure to compete, as they see fans have no expectancy regarding winning the title. As for the 2nd point regarding the young players, I don't see it as a positive, and I'll explain why: At the start of the season, Koeman should have made sure we had a strong squad in terms of senior players, and he didn't do that, and most notable was the fact that the board ended the summer window in profit. We even loaned Enner Valencia, which regardless how that worked out, showed signs that the club weren't prepared to spend on another senior striker. We invested in Calvert-Lewin, and Lookman, but let's not pretend that either player has proved a big success, (nor has Pennington) as that would be false, and all 3 have been largely ineffective, and definitely players for the future, not the 'now'. Mason Holgate has done well, but his early season efforts were ignored, in favour of the manager playing Coleman, regardless of early Coleman form (it was poor), and as websites, we were calling on social media for Koeman to play Tom Davies long before he actually did, as our performances were simply not good enough, and doing so, probably saved Koeman's Everton career, as our form improved with Davies. So, the young players papered over very large cracks, and were very much emergency plan B's, rather than Koeman having a plan, per se. Yes, it's his first season, and yes, it's too early to judge him, so still on the fence, but 7th is borderline on a mid table finish when we split the league into top, middle, and bottom, and although we are better than the teams below us, we are much worse than the teams above us. Until we can challenge for the title, we're just a mid-table team, and I'll never be pleased with 7th place. If Everton fans really think 7th is good, then they need to forget our history, and accept that we are in the same bracket as WBA, Southampton, and Stoke, and then anything better is a bonus, but we all know that deep down, Everton don't belong in that bracket, and unless we stop accepting it, and put pressure on the new owner to make the club a winning club again, nothing will change.
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Post by bornablue on May 2, 2017 20:29:45 GMT
Good write up as always. I think our fans get behind the squad though. When the players let us down, and fans object, they're told to get behind them. Isn't that a bit of a circle that only the players can change? They look out of their depth sometimes.
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Post by rosscrombie on May 3, 2017 9:37:48 GMT
That's a really good point Av, and a completely fair challenge. I think it's an improvement, not a major step forward, and yes it is in the context of the stagnation, or even backward steps, under Martinez, once teams worked out how to play his one and only system. The Clubs above us have changed too: the last few years have seen Spurs move ahead of us, literally, and this season is unusual in that all of the 6 sides above us have performed more to their potential, which didn't necessarily happen when Moyes was in charge - not every season anyway. But to be clear, it's a move forward, and if I'd said at the start of the season that we'd be 7th and had players like Holgate and Davies playing regulaRLY, that Pennington would feature more, and DCL, and a lad at Charlton would feature for us, and so on, we'd be pretty pleased. But the squad is thin, the squad is ageing and declining in certain sections, and we need lots more bodies and really quality signings in certain positions. That kind of drastic squad overhaul won't make it easy for the new team to gel straight away, but will continue us on the right path to future success. I hope.... I have to disagree Ross, sorry. Firstly, I'm not a young fan, and have seen Everton success, so I will always be critical of anybody being 'pretty pleased' with 7th, as it shows just how bad our club became, for us to think 7th is a good season. As long as this logic exists, the club are under no pressure to compete, as they see fans have no expectancy regarding winning the title. As for the 2nd point regarding the young players, I don't see it as a positive, and I'll explain why: At the start of the season, Koeman should have made sure we had a strong squad in terms of senior players, and he didn't do that, and most notable was the fact that the board ended the summer window in profit. We even loaned Enner Valencia, which regardless how that worked out, showed signs that the club weren't prepared to spend on another senior striker. We invested in Calvert-Lewin, and Lookman, but let's not pretend that either player has proved a big success, (nor has Pennington) as that would be false, and all 3 have been largely ineffective, and definitely players for the future, not the 'now'. Mason Holgate has done well, but his early season efforts were ignored, in favour of the manager playing Coleman, regardless of early Coleman form (it was poor), and as websites, we were calling on social media for Koeman to play Tom Davies long before he actually did, as our performances were simply not good enough, and doing so, probably saved Koeman's Everton career, as our form improved with Davies. So, the young players papered over very large cracks, and were very much emergency plan B's, rather than Koeman having a plan, per se. Yes, it's his first season, and yes, it's too early to judge him, so still on the fence, but 7th is borderline on a mid table finish when we split the league into top, middle, and bottom, and although we are better than the teams below us, we are much worse than the teams above us. Until we can challenge for the title, we're just a mid-table team, and I'll never be pleased with 7th place. If Everton fans really think 7th is good, then they need to forget our history, and accept that we are in the same bracket as WBA, Southampton, and Stoke, and then anything better is a bonus, but we all know that deep down, Everton don't belong in that bracket, and unless we stop accepting it, and put pressure on the new owner to make the club a winning club again, nothing will change. Like you, I'm a seasoned Evertonian, officially 50 years in June!! Let's forget supporting Chelsea until they lost in the 1967 Cup Final and my hero Bobby Tambling didn't perform on the day! I was only 8!! I told me Dad I'd never support Chelsea ever again, and promptly decided on my team my sticking a pin in the First Division table. My pin was guided to Everton, and I've never looked back. My wall was bedecked with pictures of West, Wilson, Wright, Hurst, Labone, The Holy Trinity, and then gems like Morrissey and Whittle (!!) supporting the bloke up top who I thought was literally a Giant - Royle. Chuck in the mercurial talents of Husband coming and I was a happy chappy. My memory thinks they all played together, but not sure they actually ever did!! Anyway, that's my Everton credentials...... To be clear, in and of itself, I am not "pleased" with 7th, not when taken in isolation. I AM pleased with 7th when taken as part of a journey, as part of the RK Project if you like, and to do it when as you say, we didn't have the squad strength or depth, is pretty significant. Next season will be a tricky start as a new squad (hopefully) has to gel, so we may get more joy in the Cups (eventually), and achieving 7th next season won't be good enough, but if it's a platform established by a new and better squad that can achieve Top 4 (minimum) in the season after that, then that's a project I'd buy in to. I suspect we'll see signs of that next season by an ability at some stage in the season to take on and beat the likes of Chelsea, Liverpool, Spurs and United, and also erase the embarrassing slip ups by losing or not beating the likes of Boro (or their replacement), Watford, Bournemouth and Burnley. I could predict my end of season write up this time next year - a season of two halves: finding our feet in the first, coming on strong in the second. Anyway, We HAVE improved, not enough for me or you, but better than stasis or stagnation. But I have a belief that the foundations are being established, and the new development will be this summer. The tough bit is re-modelling the squad at the same time as City and Arsenal need major surgery, Utd need at least 4 players, and Liverpool need a new back 5, and Chelsea and Spurs will cherry pick some stars to take them forward still further. We're not going to shop at Poundland, but getting the Ferraris and Lambos might be tough!!
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Post by mcrbluenose on May 3, 2017 11:54:42 GMT
Lets not forget, Chelsea rebuilt about 6 or 7 years ago when only a few clubs could compete financially as did Man city a few years later. Both were hit by the financial fair play rules which they totally ignored. Now we allegedly have money to spend, but so do other clubs so it is not going to be easy for Everton to Cherry pick. As Ross says, we have improved. Not necessarily in league positions but by performance. Yes we have has some poor games, some really poor ones if I am honest, but, we have also had some good ones. Our home form (only 2 losses all season) is impressive, and should have been better (too many draws). But it is a new manger, who inherited a team that had forgotten how to defend. He did get a few stop-gap players in to help, but he also got the like of Morgan (not even going to try and spell the rest of his name)in. A few more buys like him and we will be more than capable of competing for a champions league place. Only a few weeks ago, we were still in with an outside chance of a top 4 or 5 place and only the results of a few games (typical Everton) have put paid to that. There is no quick fix that will see us challenge for the title (Leicester was a fluke of nature and they are now in a league position that I believe is realistic for them). Chelsea didn't really challenge in year 1 of romans money, neither did city. It took a couple of years. Long suffering Evertonians have been waiting for years to witness a truly successful Everton side, surely a couple of more years of gradual improvement is not too much to ask.
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